TOPIC:

It is coming up to RYA dinghy show time which seems to be the traditional time that Portsmouth Yardstick Numbers are issued for the current year.
Now I know that if you only race other Albacores then this is of no interest, however we race in an active dinghy club on the Solent where we are the only Albacore, and race against a healthy mixture of Finns, RS200s, Wayfarers, Hadrons, National 12s, Lasers and Aeros - so to us the PYN is very important.
We have a relatively recent competive Albacore number 8153 and replace sails every couple of years, and yes our club does post returns to the RYA.
What is noticeable to us is that the Albacore PYN has decreased (ie got worse) every year from 2010 (1065) to 2017 (1041). OK 2015 to 2016 it stayed the same.
So what seems remarkable is that in the last 7 years the Albacore has become 24 points faster, not bad for a 1953 designed boat, with no recent major upgrades.
Now I know that other boats have been adjusted as well, so this is not just linear however we have gone from rating slower than RS200s for example to now rating quite a bit faster.
The PYN system is based on returns, soit is a performance related handicap - returns for 2017 show 1934 races for Albacores. (seems high)
My question is whether the Albacore Association has ever queried these returns with the RYA.
I would want to know which clubs these results with the fast Albacores are coming from - are they in the UK? Then we could make sure that these are certificated Albacores, and then perhaps ask the club(s) to run a master class to the rest of us normal club sailors.
Its all very well just saying sail faster, we need to know whether someone is really already sailing faster (is the data accurate) and if so to pass the knowledge on.
Does anyone have any insights on this?
Tim

Our club returns results to the RYA for the three boats in the club and it's rare to get more than one out at a time nowadays. The Albacore is the fastest boat on the lake sailing handicap races against Lasers, Comets, YW Dayboats etc. We had to win by about 9 minutes to get a first place so usually managed to come about fifth! Last year we started using the RYA suggested numbers for the club which gave the Albacore 1059 and us a series second place after several on the water wins when there was a decent breeze.
When we sail at Albacore open events we're back markers.
We need more racing improvers and average sailors to discover the Albacore and give us more average returns - it's notable that the Topaz Uno Race is a handicap bandit for a light adult at 1200 because it is usually sailed by novice or average junior racers.
So recruitment to the class is the key to a better handicap.

We sail at Lyme on the sea. It is what I call a "Drag Race" course in that if conditions are steady, the fastest class will win. Rs 800s beat Merlins which beat Albs which beat Lasers. We have tried "pricing the Laser in" by giving it a very high handicap to no avail except when a Laser Squad member came racing one day and actually won a race (so unusual that we all remembered !).
If the Alb is the fastest class on the water for a race, then usually an Alb will win. Our Club results are submitted automatically by Hal.
Clubs can adopt their own PY numbers but it is politically very difficult - at least now everyone moans at the RYA not at the Club.
I do not know why the Alb has a continuously reducing handicap. Baz Edmonds of the RYA will say the numbers just reflect what is submitted to them.

Like TimPR, I am the only Albacore at my club which is an inland club. The main fleets are Solos and Streakers. The fast handicap fleet has declined over the years and there are now only a few double handers which go out, namely Enterprise, RS200, Graduate and me as well as a Nat 12. Strangely, the Nat 12 has been placed in the fast handicap fleet, just out of range of the Solos and Streakers (wonder why) which gives him a huge advantage over the rest of us. I have raised the fleet handicap split as well as the Alb handicap before, but no-one seems interested and being on my own they are reluctant to give me a revised PN on what they feel would be effectively a personal handicap. My club race positions generally mirror those of OldBlueOne, being around 5th, give or take. As a result I'm gradually losing interest and only went out twice last year as I don't feel I have a chance of a fair fight. Most of my sailing was at open meetings in Flying Fifteens. My boat is a 1976 hull in good condition, but has a modern mast, sails and foils as well as modern control systems. At the few Alb opens I have been to (Rudyard, Notts and Carsington), I have been mid fleet to back marker and have been happy with that as I've had other boats to race and compare myself to.

Like Tim, I can't see how the boat has increased that much in performance and if he is having problems in a modern boat then it would appear that the class does have a problem in mixed fleets at club level.

The subject has been raised on here before by me and others, but I haven't seen a considered or formal response from the class officers in the form of action, so perhaps the class considers itself mainly a fleet pursuing class racing rather than promoting the boat at club level in mixed handicap where I believe it still has an excellent role to play in introducing people to a moderate performance boat with good all round qualities both inland and at sea.

After completing some structural works, we are doing some upgrades to Alb 6922.

When asked what the handicap was I replied around 1060, showing how out of touch I am, I was quite nervous when we read the handicap is 1041.
I wonder if more crews are sailing their boats faster, driving the numbers down?

We have now sailed a handful of races, Inland in a mixed fleet which includes some very well sailed Merlins, we noticed a disadvantage more on the course than on boat speed, a long run down wind with kites up put us at a disadvantage. When the course suited the Alb the boat was well in the mix on handicap, indeed we have managed a fair share of bullets.

I don't know what the Committee position is on this matter, if crews are becoming disillusioned then a conversation will be needed with the RYA

There have been no 'giant leaps' in Albacore developments in many years, I does beg the question with many developments in other classes taking place recently, whether one would expect the Alb to improve on handicap by remaining static.

I will ask the RYA at the Dinghy Show why the PY number keeps going down (as mentioned above) when there have been no significant technical changes in the class.

Thanks Jeremy, I think that would be useful to talk to the RYA, as unless we raise it with them they will not know that we think there is an issue.
I suspect that they will say that the calculation is done automatically from returns from clubs and so is accurate, but it would be interesting to try and find out which clubs have the fast Albacores - the list of returns in 2017 show 1,934 race returns from Albacores which is quite high compared with other boats eg Wayfarer 1,530.
However previous PYN discussions on this forum have mentioned a number of clubs that dont use the primary yardstick number, so there is perceived to be an issue.
Our club only uses Primary Portsmouth numbers - like your club they dont want the political hassle of using local numbers.
I would also urge fellow Association members to check the new RYA Portsmouth Number list when it does come out, to make sure their own club is mentioned in the thank you list for submitting returns.
Last year our club wasnt mentioned and when I chased up our dinghy committee they found that there had been a problem with the automatic data link from Sailwave results.
So do double check that your club is mentioned.
Thanks
Tim

The RYA site does disclose which clubs results are taken from,

Just a thought but if Albs do particularly well at certain clubs due to conditions, or favoured courses, perhaps, better results are achieved & subsequently submitted?

Surprise surprise!! We've gone down another three points, to 1038!

www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/t..._List%20-%202018.pdf

This is getting silly. Not only is is discouraging to sailors of older boats like me who are getting hammered in the handicap class racing, but it also devalues boats when it comes time to sell as how can you encourage new buyers into the class when they see there's little chance of fair competition at club level.

To me my choices are:
1) buy a new boat and hope you might stand a chance
2) sail only in class races and events
3) change class
4) split the fleet into gold fleet and others or even further subdivisions. Merlins do it, N12s do it, Fifteens do it. It's ridiculous I have to sail a 1976 boat on a modern handicap against a N12 using a reduced handicap and a Merlin with FRP hull and carbon rig that still gets a reduced handicap because of sail number.

I don't feel I'm going to get any enjoyment out of my club membership this year. On an inland lake with multiple windshifts and great holes all over the place it is impossible to gain the kind of distance required over a 60 or 75 minute race. I see the Enterprise has slowed down by another 3 points. How can this be with their new ultra stiff hulls and massive rig tensions?

I hope the discussions with e RYA this weekend yield something, but I doubt it.

Think I'll take the dog for a walk and calm down.

Unfortunately due to the bad weather I could not attend the Dinghy Show so I will have to follow this up by email.

Jerry, who were you going to speak to? I will see if I can have a chat with them tomorrow.

Matt

This is and always has been an emotive subject.
As it is based on data returns of factual information you can forget any arguments about development classes and improvement in build etc. Totally irrelevant in the calculations.
However it strikes me that what cannot be seen in the results is the demographic of who is sailing in the various classes and the weather conditions/courses sailed (they can of course make allowance for type of water - sea/lake/river etc).
Just to throw it out there, the perverse consequence of an attractive class of boat is to attract a disproportionate number of good sailors whose results over a season will inflate the relative performance of the boat and lead to a reducing PY number!!

The solution may be to pack out the major handicap events and all sail badly??

However, the fundamental philosophy of the PY system still remains - clubs should adjust for local conditions. Trouble is which sailing sec has big enough balls big to do this and even if this is done the data used in the annual RYA calculations would ignore this anyway.

Matt

I do agree that demographics ie whether we sail on non tidal flat water or on the sea make big differences. However my concern is whether the data the RYA is using is accurate.
The RYA would have us believe that because we are using automatic returns and they are automatically calculating PY numbers then we cant challenge their figures because a computer program is doing the calculation - but we all know computer programs get it wrong - if the data input is incorrect the result is incorrect.
Is the entire calculation automatic and correct? I dont think so - as an example look at the Miracle PYN on the 2017 list - it is 1210. Look at the Miracle PYN on the 2018 list - it says 1200 and the change from '17 column says 0 - it should say -10.
So there is a mistake hitting us in the face, either human error or computer error.
Again I worry that the no of races for Albacore 2017 and 2018 are exactly the same at 1934.....suspiciously alike.
I would like the RYA to do a sanity check on our data being input, plus tell us where the fast Albacore results are coming from - ie a bit of manual checking.
Have there been any major Albacore developments (ie rule changes) since 2010 which would make the boat 27 points faster? (I think that is 2.535% faster if my maths is correct).
You will notice that the firefly probably our closest relative has the same PY no it had in 2010.
Our number has changed for the worse since 2010 -27 points, the National 12 and the Merlin Rocket have changed -25 and -26 points, so we are improving our results faster than two restricted development classes.
Something seems wrong to me - thats why I think we need to raise this with the RYA!
I think I need to buy a dog so I can take it for a walk now!

Be careful with that - it may have an impact on your performance!