TOPIC:

Thanks, John - I'd just noticed that bit in the Rules!



I see potential for a "VSCC Bugatti situation" - "when is a repair not a repair, but new construction?" AC-B2008-09-29 16:09:33

Interesting point about the tramsom. In my experience this is one of the most common areas for problems with either rot or damage. As there is currently no wood builder I suppose we will have to bodge things up untill one is appointed or does this rule aply only to new build? Rule 5.2 says that " measurement tollerences are intended to allow for genuine building errors anmd shall not deliberately used to alter the design" Where does that leave the "Fast" boats (Woof Kingsfield et al) because if they are right the Fairey based boat must be wrong and vice versa. This is a silly rule that is practically unenforceable as the transom one. Perhaps its time the whole thing was looked at in21st century terms. And before anyone suggests it I havent got time

Well well well. Things have got a bit heated!



Today I spent some time on the phone to the technical dept at the RYA (the people who own the Albacore copyright, and in conjunction with the NAA) enforce the rules. My position as Chairman allows me the ability to get clarification on certain things no more or no less than any other personal member of the RYA. As a member of the NAA I have no more push/say/voting rights than any other member, so everything I say in this forum is a personal view on topics and usually ones that attempt to be fair level and for the good of the class and its' members. Not withstanding all of the above let me state for the record "Any alteration to any item which forms part of the measurement and subsequent issuing of a certificate by the RYA, can be re-checked at any time by the Association or race committee and it it is the sole responsibility of the owner to ensure that they comply with the rules.



So if you redeck, or re-transom, or re-centreboard etc. there is not a 100% requirement for being remeasured, the owness is on the owner to ensure it still measurers.



When I started this topic it was to try and encourage older boats' to realise that there are lots of things which if done properly and with some increase in understanding why some things work and when to apply certain controls, (ie you learn to be a better sailor) maybe more older boats will come to the championships and join in. I also said that the previous topic was suffering because we had gone off at a tangent. Well it has taken about a week for me to decide this one has gone the same way and I think I have failed in my attempt to steer it back.



Derek Gibbon

NAA member since 1985

ps I'm sure Andrews comments above about newer boats encouraging a cascade of boats down through the class is correct and despite comments elswhere about old boats heading for the bonfire, they won't, they will be fixed and "recycled" at the level they suit!

Derek Gibbon2008-10-01 08:48:09

Andrew wrote:

.... It may be the case that my 3 year old speed boat is not as fast as my brothers Kingfield but I can be sure that is good value for money well sorted and doesn't need varnishing or screwing back together on a regular basis.



Andrew

8069(Still working out where the rig should go!!)

There is no reason why 8069 should be any slower than your brother's Kingsfield. 8068 won the Nationals in 2006 and was second in 2007. Orlando's view was that there was no such thing as a "quick boat", which was probably a big factor in why he went fast - he just got on with the sailing.

Interesting thread guys, as someone who has just joined the class I m sure that there are many people who just want to buy an off the shelf boat a boat they can get in and sail without worrying whether they got a legal kingsfield, a Woof that was made to the right shape or the right vintage of Young. The fact that many of the top sailors in the fleet sail old boats is surely a great testament to the longevity of the design. The new boat looks like a great product and will surely attract new sailors to the class the class surely should welcome the new sailors that come with these boats and existing sailors who can upgrade thus releasing boats for new entrants in the secondhand market. It may be the case that my 3 year old speed boat is not as fast as my brothers Kingfield but I can be sure that is good value for money well sorted and doesn't need varnishing or screwing back together on a regular basis.



Old boats will inevitably be overtaken by newer boats and people will upgrade, of all the classes I have been involved with this is an inevitable fact of life it stimulates a flow of boats through the keen racers towards the new entrants. As Chris T rightly says, new sails well maintained foils and the correct setup along with time in the boat will more than offset any benefit a new boat will bring.



Andrew

8069(Still working out where the rig should go!!)

Wow. This is possibly the best way of keeping people out of old boats that need work I have ever had the misfortune to see or hear. I assume at that rate every redeck / major repair would need to go through the whole rigmorole just to maintain the certificate. Its no wonder perfectly restoreable boats keep finding their way onto bonfires

Derek - Thanks. I've sent a PM. (Parents' evening 6.45-7.30!)

Does Richard Smith want to replace his transom? I think not, he is going to take off 5mm from the back face of the transom and replace it with 5mm of new wood, ie not changing the shape.



So what did the RYA say? rule 5.5 has two parts to it.



5.5 For the measurement certificate and buoyancy endorsements to be valid, all hulls, spars, sails and equipment shall comply with either the current class rules or those class rules applying to them at the time when the original certificate was issued or endorsement signed with additional requirement that those items marked with an asterisk in Part B and Part D of the rules shall comply with the current class rules. Any alterations, replacements or repairs shall comply with the current class rules.



So hull 1741 built in 1965 before the line drawing were produced and the current tolerances applied, means that the section “or those class rules applying to them at the time when the original certificate was issued”. Would be what we want to apply. Any attempt to have a fairey hull measured under current class rules; (the only other alternative) would require a chain saw…. ie it is not an option.



The responsibility in complying with the above is the owner/registered keeper. The RYA will only issue a certificate after they are happy that the boat conforms to the original/current rules and that may require a re-measurement.



In order to be able to be able to have original (1965) rules apply the following needs to be considered, remember the onus is on the owner, take photographs, templates of the transom and measurements of the original transom and have them signed off by an independent club official. This may sound like overkill, but I am a belt and braces kind of guy. Andrew Craig-Bennett (AC- could of course do the same as Richard to ensure the shape stays as the original.



Derek Gibbon

NAA Chairman

ps Andrew has posted the above while I have taken over an hour to write my "piece" Andrew I think it is time we spoke. PM me your telephone number or call me after 6 tonight on 01383 880 727..... I really do want to help!

(Deleted as it crossed with Derek's port below, which supersedes it) AC-B2008-09-30 15:51:04

Most certainly not. but replacement of parts that still comply with the letter of the rules should pose no problem and Richard Smith should be allowed to replace his transom without having to find a measurer. He wont be the first or the last and it will keep older entry level boats on the water for longer which is in the best interests of the class. Besides,if you make a significant change to any part of a moulded hull the movement appears somewhere else. twist the front the back moves so significant gains cannot be made.

Using any relaxation as a reason to tweak supposes that a builder actually wants to go to the trouble of altering moulds etc for about 5-10 boats a year. Unlikely. The precedent has already been set by Woof/ Kingsfield . What we ned is a sensible means of keeping old boats sellable and sailable to the bennifit of the class as a whole

Sam

Hi Sam et al



As you will see from my previous posting (2/3 up)



"Sorry if this seems a bit firm but the hull shape is an area that almost brought the class to it's knees during the late 80's and 90's. Even today the topic crops up from time to time. I suspect this will raise more questions and I will try and answer them and also check with the RYA rep and the technical committee"



The point I was making is we cannot allow owners to change the hull shape after the boat has been measured, surely you are not suggesting that we do?



The problem with allowing an exception for whatever reason is that others will use this as a precedent to tweak.



Derek Gibbon

NAA Chairman

ps I will contact the RYA todayDerek Gibbon2008-09-30 08:23:40

Where does it say a redeck requires remeasurement? All I can find is 5.5 which says,in part,"Any alterations, replacements or repairs shall comply with current class rules" No mention of remeasurement the onus being on the builder/owner to ensure that every thing is legal. Does it not also say on the certificate that the owner undertakes to comply with class rules or words to that effect. Talk about the spirit of the rules is a nonsense that all went out of the window the day a boat was signed off and it wasnt up and down the middle of the tollerences. In this day and age 1mm is a big distance let alone the size of the tollerence we have and at that rate anything NOT in the middle must be outside "The spirit of the rules" We accept without question that a boat should be minimum weight,have maximum sized sails and as near a maximum thickenss centreboard as possible all these are deliberately exploited tollerences and outside the spirit of the rules. I am not seeking to open old wounds again with this but it seems to me that we ruling any repaired old boat out of class unless remeasured. Are there any measurers out here I have never seen a list.

Sam

Crikey! A lot to take in here - I have a lot of learning to do!








Thanks to everyone who has chipped in in response to my rather naive questions.


Richard - yes, she is that boat. Very sporting of Ben May to part with her. I had planned just to re=deck and use her for cruising and local club races but, as Ben had spotted, the hull is too good for that, and I will have to do things properly. Thanks for the advice on the half height tank and the mast strut post.


Derek - I hope you won't mind if I consult you quite a bit more as matters progress, particularly on rule interpretation.

Andrew

There was a Fairey at this years nationals that had a replacement transom fitted. I understand that its owner was asked at the event to get it re measured for his result to stand. I also think it had new decks, tanks bulkheads, C board case, mast boom sails etc. The only origenal part must have been the hull skin! However it looked fantastic, pointed like a badger and beat many a Woof Kingsfield Young Speed . 17th overall from memory.

I too have an old fairy where the transom has been painted. When I stripped it back it was obvious that it was too far gone to take a coat of varnish so I repainted it. There was a little bit of rot in the plywood where the transom meets the hog. My West and micro fibre repair has served well over the last three years and is invisible under the paint. I am intending this winter to carefully take the router to the transom face and remove 5 mm. I have some 5 mm ply with a nice figure in the grain to reface the transom with. I am hoping that I am keeping well inside the 'spirit' of the rules by doing this and not going to provoke the question of remeasurement.

I have got a half tank in the bow and I am not sure re the pros and con re stiffness or too much or too little boyancy in a capsize. What I can say is that it is most practicle when you are out on the water for a day. The sandwiches keep nice and dry under the fore deck and they are not rolling around in the bilge water. Also handy for stowing cloths paddles flares etc. If you do put in a half tank consider a post to take a load for a mast strut. I had to add this as a retro fit and it was fiddly

Good Luck with your rebuild, If it the boat that I saw recently on the NAA for sale forum with the fore and aft planking, I think you have got a real bargin.




Regards


Richard Smith

1925




?OLIAN


[/i][/i]

Hi

The fact that the boat is being re-decked (decked again) it will almost certainly need to be re-measurered. As for changing the hull shape that is a no...no! The tolerences are for builders errors, not to tweak the hull shape. This does bring up the fact that the more modern Albacore is a different shape from early Fairey Hulls but since they were built before the lines had been drawn we have to work with the original measurement certificate. We also have to work within the spirit of the class rules. It may be better to request from the RYA a copy of the original certicate to get a starting point. Also if there is not one, then clarification of the current shape will need to be checked and maintained.



Sorry if this seems a bit firm but the hull shape is an area that almost brought the class to it's knees during the late 80's and 90's. Even today the topic crops up from time to time. I suspect this will raise more questions and I will try and answer them and also check with the RYA rep and the technical committee.



regards



Derek Gibbon

NAA Chairman