TOPIC:

This topic is a direct spin off from comments made in the Forum topic “New Speed Boats – Your Comments”, as with all good discussions sometimes we go off on a tangent and end up muddying the waters.

First we need to define what “an old boat” means and why it is not competitive. Can I suggest that a 20year old Woof like the one Michael Mac (MM), Jean Simmons (JS), and Crawford Reid (CR) etc etc sails is not what we are talking about! Well unfortunately in order to for these “old” boats to stay competitive we need to include them in the discussion and understand why a Knight & Pink, Fairey, Young/Young, Fosrite Rondar, Amos, etc, etc are not competitive.



Can I start by saying that the hull shape is obviously a factor, but only a factor not the whole story. I have previously commented /written about the advantages of Woof over Kingsfield, of Kingsfield over Woof and even conditions when very early Fairey hulls seem to have an advantage. Without going over old ground too much Woofs carry weight better than Kingsfield and are better at beating, Kingsfields suit a lighter all up crew weight and are nominally faster (in certain conditions) on reaches. So far so good, the old Fairey hull is probably better than both in 0–2 knots of wind on flat water. So why do MM, JS, and CR (and others) boats stay competitive? The answer is simple they continue to maintain to a high standard the equipment they use, when you pull a control line the control works. When something is looking suspicious it gets replaced when an innovation comes along they try it and if they see a benefit they implement. I personally sail a Kingsfield and I have seen the advantage of the fast reach being eroded by the innovation of leeward (or reaching) poles. Does this mean that I give up? No, I just have to find a tweak that either brings back that advantage or learn to do things better elsewhere.



I have been reading all of my available copies of Alive and you know what a wealth of information there is, so in good old Michael Schumacher style I am going to keep it to myself and win next years Championships, only problem with that plan is I read prior to going to Lyme Regis, or was it Torquay, “see you at the end of next years Internationals when I will be crowned Champion”…… Maybe I will find a way of getting them on to the web….. I knew that scanner would come in handy some day.



So how do we make old boats competitive? Answers please.



Derek Gibbon 7176 & 6852

Mast, sails and foils easy.

Sail a lot.

Prior to 05 Internationals I had not set foot in an Albacore, we did the following;

New mast from Selden, I knew how the mast worked and was happy with the bend charcteristics.

Sails from Mike Mac, I knew he would not let us down!

Hull, wet flatted (wet'n'dry 600 grade) and polished with an electric buffer.

Centre board wet flatted.

Rudder made my own.

The hull was a 'Woof' and needed little work.



I did the same to 6918, woof hull, new Selden mast, Mac sails, we were fast.

Since then 6918 had the full repaint/varnish but had to be sold, I still had the use of 7512 and now a new glass boat.

Well Chris, it looks like you are definitely the throw some money at the problem, kind of guy! Although in principle you are sort of right….. Lets see if we can do the same for less dosh! Existing mast – but do we (helm & crew) know the characteristics of the mast in different conditions (I don’t) learn how to increase and de-power the mast. Speak to your sailmaker; ask if the sails he made you last year (or five years ago) are ok for your current all up weight of xxSt. If cash is in short supply you need to ask “what is the best I can do given new sails are not an option” Or maybe you can afford a jib!



Hull & Foils as Chris says, 600 grade wet & dry, I Know that the previous owner of 7176 used 1000 W&D to get the desired finish. Two schools of thought here leave after W&D or polish, I will let Chris come back on that one!



I now go back to the topic of control lines and whether they work when you pull on them. Lets just say if they don’t they need replacing and you just have to do it! So look at the control line, the pulleys in the system and the cleating device.



Right -- Flyaway pole is a must! Not expensive use existing pole, no chance of loosing it!



Adjustable rig -- minimum is quadrant levers and/or throw off levers, this requires some mechanism to pull the mast forward so muscle box (ebay Ł10) or a pulley system (make one up).



Remember if everytyhing in the boat is working you can devote your time to going fast, watching for changes in conditions and generally just enjoying your sailing – but faster!



Derek Gibbon 7176 & 6852



Derek Gibbon2008-09-17 20:37:15

With respect to wet and drying I think it depends on which paint you use. I experiment on which is the best grade of wet and dry with some warm water and a little washing up liquid. If you get the correct grade then you will get a milky residue when sanding. Also when the boat is cleaned and dried you can poor cold water on the finished surface and it should role straight off. Personally i only wet and dry the bottom of the boat and keep the gloss effect on the sides. However the water droplets will stick to the unpolished / sanded sides. I must get out more!



It is also pays to read the rigging articles and the tuning articles on our sisters sites in the USA and Canada I know that Messieurs Duncan and Harris and many more have spent a lot of time putting pen to paper to explain how to tune/sail Albacores.



Phil


A6504 A6936

I suppose it all depends on how much time /money you are prepared to chuck at an old hull. Over the past few years I have "restored" variously 3Faireys, 1 6000no Young and a very late Woof 7162. The common problem with all of these when they arrived was tons of old paint daubed over everything in sight Try weighing a bag of paint peelings and you get an idea of what extra weight you carry (and YOU ought to get out more Phil). Most of the old Faireys have pounds of redundant brass fittings and useless junk fitted by previous owners. Weigh it in for scrap . Modern fittings come up at boat jumbles and on ebay so a refit need not cost the earth. Foils can often be reconditioned, painted and refinnished but as Chris T says there is no substitute for GOOD spars and sails but these still come up at times. You could of course go mad and go for the redeck in lighter stiffer ply and tighten the whole thing up a bit.

As I said I have done quite a lot of this and can say that on smallish inland waters an old FAIREY THAT IS STIFF AND DOWN TO WEIGHT WILL BEAT MOST THINGS IF ITS GOING IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.The only time our Woof cashed in was on big sea courses in marginal planeing stuff But thats what every seems to want

Hi Guys

Can I firstly correct Derek on the age of boats, Ptarmigan is in fact 30yrs old past in July and the others mentioned will be similar. Personally I am very proud to have GBR 6703 and because of the extensive work that I have done to her, by way of refit and upgrade I have become very attached, as I would imagine owners of similar boats are, I have owned 6 Albies and all but one, AL 1717 were much newer boats and when racing them I had similar results. I think a lot of it comes down pretty much to luck, but you know what they say,! The longer your at it, the luckier you get!

Crawford

GBR 6703 GBR 7502 GBR 7179

Its very easy to get psyched out by newer equipment, latest gadgets, become obsessed about windage and weight. It was interesting to see that the new Ovington Speed had two great rolls of lead correctors glued to its transom at this years nationals. Now whats that they say about keeping weight out of the ends? Even with all that lead it still managed a win on one of the races (probably because it was well sailed and the helm and crew made no mistakes). Good news for me as I don't have to take the black and decker to my aft deck just yet. [/i]





A friend of mine who was a keen cyclist spent Ł4K a few years back on his titanium framed, aero rimmed, blade spokes, custom made bike. I asked him how much difference did it make, and he replied that Lance Armstrong would beat him on a Postmans bike!





So is it all about raw tallent - well I didn't ever see Lance Armstrong use a postmans bike in the Tour De France.





I am not sure what I am really saying here apart from this debate is part of what makes our sport so fascinating. I am not about to join the arms race, I can’t afford to, however I will spend many happy hours fiddling with my ageing craft trying to get it as far up the fleet as possible, probably only to throw it all away at the windward mark on port tack. It was also great to see Chris Somner do so well in his beautiful Fairey hull at this years nationals and gives hope for us all with the old hulls.





So how do you make an old boat fast, in my opinion sail it well, don’t make mistakes, make your luck and of coarse good sails and a stiff hull will also help.





Richard


?OLIAN[/i]


1925[/i]

The most impressive bit of sailing in an Albacore I have ever seen is when Shaun Fitzgerald who hadn't sailed in years, sailed with his son (a complete novice) in a very knackered old dock boat (fosrite held together with two old boom sections) finished 4th at a windy northern area championship at Humber mouth (on the sea) in the early 90's out of about 30 boats. It goes to show what can be done.



Phil A6504"Nemesis" MrGin2008-09-30 15:49:25

I am brand new to Albacores. Having just acquired a good Fairey hull in need of a new deck, but with very usable foils, and decided to do a proper job rather than "throw it afloat", I have some questions, to do with stiffness and weight.



First up - the boat is "all buoyancy bags", no compartments. It looks as if a bow compartment might have been taken out quite a while ago, but there do not seem to have been side compartments at any time - no traces of stringers, screw holes, glue, etc.



Firefly experience suggests that the Mark III Faireys with all bags are absolutely competitive with, if not faster than, the Mark IIs with side compartments, so I am inclined to put a stiff deck on and leave the hull open.




Right or wrong?



However, I would like to put in part bulkheads (ply with cut outs) to spread stresses and retain shape in way of the mast and in way of the shroud plates?



Right or wrong?



What, if anything, should be done about the mast step area?



Can I use carbon tape?



Thanks in advance. AC-B2008-09-29 11:42:51

Hi AC-B,



Welcome to the Albacores you have made a good choice. With repect to your renovation, it may be worth considering........



Bow tank. A half height tank will stiffen the front end. This can be achieved with some Gaboon Ply from Robins (also can be used for deck).



Side tanks. This is worth doing as again it will stiffen the boat.




Bulkheads. Good idea to even out the stresses and straines of the mast.



You may want to consider a new transom to flare the back end a bit and possibly extending the bow to the maximum allowed. Those in the know would say make sure your centre board is as far back as allowed in the hull.



I am no expert in re building Albs but i have renovated a few. I'm sure you will get more comments in due course from people who have done this.



Oh and Carbon tape is not allowed!



Welcome once again!



Phil

A6504 "Nemesis"

Hi



Can I assume that you got your boat from Ben at the Thames? What Phil has suggested makes sense, but you need to start off by weighing the bare hull and then making some decisions. Maybe you can get back in touch once you know the weight. You will be able to use epoxy to stiffen the hull when you redeck and a half tank will also help, if there is a thwart or stiffner across the front of the centreboard case then that will help, if not they can be fitted.



Derek Gibbon 7176 & 6852

NAA ChairmanDerek Gibbon2008-09-29 12:14:50

Thanks very much indeed, Phil.



I have almost a whole sheet of 5mm Robbins Gaboon spare from renewing Firefly side tank fronts (Firefly class regs say 5mm +/- 1 mm - original fronts were 6mm, 4mm is flimsy..)




Half height bow tank - thanks, will do.



Very interesting thought about the transom - some hooligan (not Ben who passed her on to me when his rebuild project got overtaken by paternity) has painted the old transom black (on a fore and aft planked Fairey - aaragh! ) so an excuse to scrap and replace it will be taken very gladly, and if we can flatten out the afterbody in the process.... !







Anything I need to do about the mast step area?



AC-B2008-09-29 14:52:28

Derek - Thank you; yes, this was the boat that Ben May at Thames SC had for sale.



The hull is very light - it has been stripped and revarnished externally and internally it has yet to be cleaned out. Without the decking it is difficult to be sure of what the stripped hull weight would be - I suppose I can weight a sheet of Robbins plywood and adjust for deck area using Simpson's Rules - but in handling it it did seem very light, I would estimate, based on lugging other dinghies around, about 170-180lbs.



(I've now found and printed off the Class Rules!) AC-B2008-09-29 15:45:00

MrGin wrote:

Hi AC-B,


You may want to consider a new transom to flare the back end a bit ....

AC-B wrote:

Very interesting thought about the transom - some hooligan (not
Ben who passed her on to me when his rebuild project got overtaken by
paternity) has painted the old transom black (on a fore and aft planked Fairey - aaragh![img]smileys/smiley18.gif[/img]) so an excuse to scrap and replace it will be taken very gladly, and if we can flatten out the afterbody in the process.... !

Andrew, welcome to the class, but a note of caution before you rush into replacing the transom. Check out rule 2.2:

...The transom shall be built into the shell by the licensed builder and shall be not less than 17mm thick.
I guess this is there to prevent the aforementioned surgery being applied to gain an advantage, however I'm not sure how it would apply to a renovation. You may have to get a full re-measure.
John W.

Thanks, John - I'd just noticed that bit in the Rules!



I see potential for a "VSCC Bugatti situation" - "when is a repair not a repair, but new construction?" AC-B2008-09-29 16:09:33